Archive for November, 2006
November 30, 2006 at 12:21 am · Filed under Uncategorized, Knowledge and Experiences, Entrepreneurship & Business, Entrepreneurship
As I embark upon starting another business, this time with my friend Rola, it seems time for another entry on entrepreneurship. When I think of entrepreneurship in China or am asked why are you here or asked how long will you be here, I recall a brief quote from The Wall Street Journal. (The WSJ is an excellent publication with many interesting and in-depth articles about China.) The article in the WSJ was read to me a couple of years ago by mom, already knowing my interest in China. The quote, as I remember it, is: “If I were young and fluent in Chinese, I’d go to China and get rich.” This quote inspires and pushes me to look for new opportunities because I AM young, trying to become fluent in Chinese, and just as capable as anyone else. Furthermore, since being in China only 4 months, I’ve likely met more entrepreneurs here than I had previously in my entire life.
Granted, this guy’s quote was referring to China’s boom days of the 1990s, but with annual GDP growth still exceeding 6%, I think it’s still a great time to be in China. Now, perhaps may be even better that the 1990s because there’s slightly more transparency in the government and government regulations regarding businesses, as well as the opening up to foreign competition as a result of China’s WTO accession. Not to mention, Chinese consumers are getting wealthier, with more disposable income, and presumably, there’s also been an increase in B2B spending.
So, when foreigners ask me, how long will you be here, I’m tempted to offer them that quote and respond with ‘as long as I can make money.’ When Chinese people ask me, ‘why are you here?,’ I’m hesitant to offer that quote, lest it sound exploitative and too counter to the ideals of communism. But on the other hand, my native Chinese teacher helped me improve my response to this question from 赚钱 (’make money’) to 赚很多钱 (’make lots of money’), so… 
When discussing this quote and my intention to make money in China, my friend said to me, but can’t you make money back home or anywhere? And I get that response a lot. Well, it’s kind of like the stock market–some are winners, some are losers, and some offer slightly better returns that others. You just need to know how to allocate your time and money wisely, and for me, right now, that’s in China.
November 24, 2006 at 6:36 am · Filed under Uncategorized, Tourism, Traveling
For the past week, I played tour guide to my mom and grandparents as they were visiting Shanghai <-pictures . I had the pleasure of introducing this dynamic city to them. It has been about 20 years since they were last here so they definitely needed to know about places to go around Shanghai.
During the days and evenings I was able to spend with them, I chose the restaurants. Here is the list of Shanghai restaurants we ate at together and a few of my comments. I'd also welcome their comments as well.
Di Shui Dong -- Hunan (Chinese) food -- cheap -- Maoming & Changle (& other locations) -- this is one of my favorite Chinese restaurants in Shanghai because I like spicy food, they have an English menu w/ pictures, and the food is good and affordable.
Venetto -- Italian -- upper moderate -- Henan & Yan'an -- this place serves good Venetian Italian food and is conveniently located near the Westin hotel. It's too expensive for everyday, but when you're in the mood for good Italian, its a nice treat.
Da Niang Shui Jiao -- Chinese (dumplings) -- very cheap -- on Huai Hai (multiple locations) -- one of my co-workers recommended this place to me; at the time I didn't realize I'd eaten at this place before. Not exactly the best place to take your parents since there's no English menu and you stand at the counter to order. But since we weren't very hungry, and it was nearby and very cheap, it made a for a good, light dinner. As dumplings are one of my favorite Chinese dishes, I'd certainly go again. (Just hope next time I can take a Chinese friend to read the menu to me.)
Element Fresh -- Health food -- lower to moderate -- Huai Hai & Xiangyang, Shanghai Center (& other locations) -- Started by an American, this place serves a mixture of health foods and Asian sets for lunch & dinner (tho they're open for breakfast, too) and has large American-size portions, which are reflected in its prices. My salad was excellent and definitely fresh; they also have an extensive juice/smoothie selection.
Shao Xing -- Chinese -- moderate -- near Shanghai Circus World -- this was a new dining experience for me: you are assigned a writer and then you and the writer walk around the viewing area of the restaurant. You point at plastic wrapped dishes you want ordered and she writes them down. When you're finished, you go back to your table and wait. I've often seen pictures, but actual food presentations (at a non-buffet) are quite unique. It would have been good but they were soooo slooooowwww. I told the server multiple times we had tickets to the 7:30pm show and she said she knew (why else would foreigners be in this part of town), but yet we didn't have time to eat our last dish and barely had time to wait for it to be boxed up.
Old Shanghai Station -- Chinese -- moderate to upper moderate -- Caoxi Bei Lu (just south of Xujiahui metro) -- for Chinese food, I'd say this place is not worth the money. The food was alright but the meat in the dishes was somewhat disappointing. I think the appeal of this restaurant is the higher class decor, service, wine selection, atmosphere, and history, not the food, in my opinion.
Ruijin Restaurant -- Chinese -- lower moderate -- Ruijn Hotel, on Maoming — Good Chinese food in a classy setting since the restaurant overlooks swan lake. With the reasonable prices and nice ambience, I’d certainly invite a group of friends here for dinner.
KABB — Western — moderate to upper moderate — Xintiandi — I really enjoyed the atmosphere at Kabb (probably because it’s in Xintiandi) but it certainly doesn’t fit my regular budget. Even during happy hour we still managed to rack up a tab. The pastas were somewhat plain, but the soups were quite good. My grandparents were just happy not to eat Chinese food again. I’d go again, maybe to try their Sunday brunch.
Le Royal Meridien, Le Bistro — Thanksgiving — moderate to upper– Nanjing Dong Lu — The Royal Meridien is still in its soft-opening, as such we probably ate the cheapest 5* hotel Thanksgiving dinner buffet available in Shanghai. The food was great and the spread extensive. But I have to admit, as a hotelier (can I call myself that yet?) it’s a good thing to know they’re still in the ’soft-opening phase’ because they lost our reservation and seemed they had lost many other people’s as well (they did do a very good job of accommodating us tho); they didn’t get the stuffing on the buffet until about 1.5 hours into dinner; and many dishes were heard shattering to the ground.
All in all, I’d say we had some good meals while my family was in town, and we had a good mixture of Chinese and Western food.
I had asked for the weekend off so I could show my family around at the beginning of their stay to get them oriented in Shanghai. So on Saturday, we all went to:
South Bund Material & Spinning Market (ie, the tailors or fabric market), then to
QiPu Lu (selling clothing, shoes, accessories, bags, souvenirs, etc).
Then on Sunday, my friend Elva had helped me reserve a car and driver. We took an 8 hour trip out of Shanghai.
First we went to Zhouzhuang, perhaps the most famous and picturesque water-town or canal-town in the region. It was definitely very lovely despite the constant rain. I also enjoyed the crafts stalls where you could watch vendors making taffy, knitted shoes, and other crafts.
Later we came back to SongJiang, a suburb of Shanghai. We had an excellent, fantastically cheap Chinese lunch; all 7 of us ate for less than $12 total. Then we saw the oldest Mosque in Shanghai and actually quite a few Uighurs (Chinese Muslims from Xinjiang).
After that we took a brief trip to Britain…that’s right, Thames town. The recently built housing complex is modeled after British towns, right down to the cobblestone streets and pubs. Very interesting. I would like to see the German and Italian towns too, if/when they’re built. It’s too bad the weather was soo poor and there weren’t many people living there yet.
On Monday, we went to the Shanghai Circus World and saw Era: The Intersection of Time. The performance was amazing, so well done, and with stunts that would make even the most seasoned attendee hold their breath.
We also had massages at Dragonfly, a very nice, reasonably priced, clean, comfortable, franchised company. We all enjoyed the secure atmosphere and relaxing massage.
On Thanksgiving Day we also went to the Peace Hotel and the Bund, despite the rain. It’s beautiful area even in the rain and reminded me even more of Hong Kong in the rain. After that we went to the Art Museum, in Renmin Park (just across from the JW Marriott). Although over 70-year olds got in free, I think we’d all agree the museum wasn’t worth the money. There was nothing by way of English descriptions and the rowdy school children distracted any sense of calm and pondering that might have gone on at an art museum. After that we walked west along Nanjing West Road looking at shops and outdoor markets (again in the rain).
I believe they had an excellent trip to Shanghai, but because of the rain, they missed Yu Yuan Garden. Also, as I was waiting for visitors to come before going to Lujiazui and we ran out of time, I still have not seen the Pearl Tower or JinMao Tower up close or admired the view from their heights. Having drinks at the bar in the Grand Hyatt in the top of JinMao tower is definitely on my list though. But due to the price, drinks there and at Face Bar require a special occasion…my birthday maybe? or whoever comes next to visit…
November 22, 2006 at 8:45 pm · Filed under Uncategorized
As you may have guessed, I’ve been very busy recently. I had a strange work schedule for awhile and during my off time was working on my report for work and my other projects. Then this week my mom and grandparents have been in town so I’ve been showing them around. Anyway, I’ll have a new entry and more pictures over the weekend.
In the meantime, the comments are fixed, so you can give feedback.
November 8, 2006 at 5:50 am · Filed under Uncategorized
When opening the door to the wedding banquet midway through dinner, I was soon washed over with smoke. After standing for a few moments inside that smoke filled room, my eyes soon started stinging. After just a short while inside those wedding banquets, my clothes smelled like smoke. It’s truly appalling how much people smoke at weddings and how much people smoke in general in China.
While running on a somewhat hazy (meaning polluted) day in Shanghai, I was coughing as I ran by people smoking before 7am! It says on the package in English (and presumably Chinese, as well), ‘Smoking Causes Disease and Death.’ That’s pretty blatant. If I read that everytime I picked up a pack of Oreos, even though I know transfats can cause disease and as a result death, I think I would seriously stop eating Oreos. But yet that extremely bold warning has had seemingly no effect on the smoking population of China. Although, I haven’t done the research on it, it wouldn’t surprise me if China was the largest cigarette market in the world, followed closely by the US and Indonesia.
I just have to be glad there is no smoking allowed on public transportation. Although eating and peeing do seemed to be allowed on public transportation… Go figure…
November 7, 2006 at 3:18 am · Filed under Uncategorized, Knowledge and Experiences
By ‘attending’ 6 weddings over three days I was offered an additional insight into Chinese culture by watching this key cultural component of any society. Chinese weddings in recent years have become more Western. Traditionally the bride would wear red to symbolize prosperity and happiness; however with the interest in Western culture, modern brides in China wear full length flowing white wedding gowns on par with any in the US. They wear the white dress for the ceremony, which is usually non-religious but more about knitting the family/the couple together in the name of love. Unlike traditional Western weddings, this is not the first time the groom has seen the bride in her white gown. In China, the couple usually goes to a photo studio weeks before the wedding and gets hundred of photos taken. These photos are then displayed at the wedding.
Following the ceremony is a large Chinese style dinner with more aspects of Western culture blended in. According to recent trends, the banquet room is all dressed in white, with lots of fresh flowers. Wedding photos of the couple may also be displayed or the couple may bring a slide show of their youth as well as wedding pictures. After all the guests are seated (usually more than attended the ceremony), the bride and groom process in. Sometimes the bride may be given away by her father to the groom, as is traditional in Western weddings. Then the couple walks down the middle of the room for everyone to see and bear witness to their marriage. Throughout the dinner the MC talks most of the time and there are many speeches and toasts. The couple may go to each table and ‘gan bei’ with every table, meaning drink an entire glass. Since the couple doesn’t want to get so drunk, they only drink alcohol with their favorite tables, with every other table they drink soda while making the guests drink an entire glass of beer or wine. In between the toasts, thanks, speeches, and slide show the bride will also change dresses multiple times, maybe wearing as many as 3-4 gowns per night and each return of the bride must include a procession of her and the groom down the length of the room. Finally, toward the end of the evening the couple will cut the cake and one large piece will be put on each table.
Since the wedding is in China and food is one of greatest points of pride among Chinese, at weddings they of course eat Chinese food, served family style. This means that all the dishes are placed in the middle of the table on a lazy-susan and people simply use their chopsticks to dig-in and grab what they want. It is very important at these events for there to be left over food. Despite the fact our banquet set-menu has about 10-12 dishes included (not counting cake or drinks), one of the questions most often asked is, ‘Is that enough food? … Maybe we can add another dish.’ This demand to have leftover, even wasted food seems a bit strange in a country where so many people don’t get enough to eat. Contrast this to a country like the US where people certainly get enough to eat (judging by the obesity epidemic) but yet still insist on finishing everything on their plates to ensure no food is wasted. Coming from the US culture where we don’t waste food, it’s a tragedy to watch as pounds and pounds of leftover finely prepared food are simply dumped into the trash because Chinese wedding parties insist on having ‘enough,’ meaning lots of extra left on the table, at each wedding. Their perception is that by having enough food for the guests they are proving their social status, including the fact they have enough money to provide a wedding feast to their guests.
Most of the time this food is just left on the table to be thrown away, but some wedding guests do wish to take it home. This seems to me a bit of a dirty practice seeming that everyone has already passed their germs onto the leftover food by using their one pair of chopsticks to pickup food and put it into their mouths. In one example of people wanting to take home the food, 2 people were arguing very strongly, nearly to the point to of shoving each other, about who was going to take home the extra food. This seemed a bit ridiculous and even disrespectful to the couple, in my opinion.
Certainly, you don’t want to run out of food at a wedding, but the insistence on having so much leftover, wasted food is really sad. It seems to me there really should be a better alternative.
November 6, 2006 at 4:42 am · Filed under Uncategorized, Knowledge and Experiences, Entrepreneurship & Business, Business Climate
Having read numerous books and articles on contract negotiations in China, I thought I had a good familiarity with the process…until it came time to negotiate my own (employment) contract. A common theme among literature discussing contract negotiations in China is after all the issues had been discussed and settled, the Chinese partner comes back to the table and starts renegotiating various issues as if they had never been settled or they were having second thoughts or were trying to extract additional concessions from the foreigner. This exactly happened to me. All of terms of my employment were discussed during my interview, about a week later I was presented with a contract (even after I started working), and I reviewed it. Generally it looked fine, though there were a few details I wanted adjusted, but still I would agree to it. Then they came back to me and say ‘Oh wait, there’s a mistake in that one. You are supposed to work 6 days per week.’ I’m sorry, there’s no way that’s a mistake. That’s a huge mistake to make. That’s a difference of 50+ days per year. Not to mention it’s against Chinese labor laws, which limits the work week to 5 days and 40 hours.
Though they wrote it off as a miscommunication, I took it as a contract negotiation tactic and came prepared to meet them at the bargaining table. In Chinese negotiations, one must be extremely patient. The Chinese don’t have the same sense of urgency to meet market demands, nor of urgency to beat competitors to market, nor of being bothered by the extreme amounts of time that can be wasted in negotiating contracts. They’ll outlast almost any foreigner on patience just waiting for the concessions they hope for. At this point, having remembered what I read about contract negotiation in China, I was prepared to bargain hard but also be as patient as necessary until my legs collapsed under me while working.
As I discussed with other friends working in China, the Chinese try to extract as much out of the foreigner as possible. This is true in Joint-Ventures as well, where the Chinese partner tries to retain as much control as possible and get technology transfers, etc. As far as employment, in the case of someone I know, they’ve asked her to apply for and teach an additional class and write all her own teaching materials (which of course they will keep and use in the future). According to her contract, presumably, she must follow all reasonable orders, but is doubling your teaching time when you’re already teaching 15-20 hours per week reasonable? But if she doesn’t do as they say, she will be fired and in doing so also lose her chance to obtain her masters degree. The company fully knowing this, is using this to their advantage, to extract extra effort from the foreigner without any additional compensation. Though according to my contract I must work unpaid overtime (if necessary), I have no intention of being sucked into one of these schemes, especially not before I’ve even signed my contract. Therefore, I’m prepared to stand my ground on this issue and ensure a manageable work week.
Perhaps because of the industry or maybe the Chinese are becoming more reasonable or perhaps because this company has done employment contract negotiations with a foreigner before or perhaps because they value me, there was no need for all my anticipation. The GM came to me the next day and said ‘you only want to work 5 days, that’s fine. Just work hard.’ Wow! So reasonable. Today the HR Mgr came to me and didn’t seem very happy I would only work 5 days per week, but since the GM agreed, he had no choice. (Was this another negotiation technique? His disapproval of the situation? I thought HR people were supposed to work for the benefit of the employees.) Nonetheless, a satisfactory end result without the serious negotiations I anticipated, but I did drop the other contract issues I qualms about as a 5-day work week is far more important to me.
So my advice is, seek out other’s advice and experience to the greatest extent possible before going into any contract negotiations with the Chinese. It may save you a lot of money and headaches. Then, be prepared for anything, from the most outrageous demands to the most reasonable compromises and if you find the other side meeting you half-way, respond with appropriate accommodation.
November 1, 2006 at 4:10 am · Filed under Uncategorized, Knowledge and Experiences, Entrepreneurship & Business, Business Climate
China is almost totally a cash-based society. This is particularly true in rural and western China where they lack the banking infrastructure to process any kind of transactions other than cash. This is slightly less true in Shanghai. As a society so heavily reliant upon cash, a number of things amuse or annoy me:
- Why do the banks have such short hours?! Yesterday I rushed from work to HSBC to try to get there by 6pm so that I could get enough money to pay my rent. However, my effort was in vain…they close at 5pm. I complained to the manager, what good does it do anyone who works a normal schedule for the bank to be open from 9-5 and NOT issue ATM cards? He told me to come at lunch. I was like, if I had that kind of flexibility in my schedule, don’t you think I would. Then he said if you’re a Premier customer we may be able to help you on the weekends. Well, I’m not. But I complained, HSBC in HK is open on weekends to all customers, why not in China. Seriously mister, this is China, you can’t be paying your staff that much money so just pay a few of them to stay an hour longer. I figured it was just an evil attempt by HSBC to keep my money a little longer until… So learning my lesson from yesterday when I needed to go get cash from my ATM (and chose the location where the ATM is only open when the bank is open) I made sure to get there before 5pm. However, this bank closes at 4:30pm and is Not open on weekends either! How do people function in an economy where they must have cash but the banks aren’t open convenient enough hours to provide it to them and where some banks don’t issue ATM cards?
- People carrying around giant wads of cash. Although I’ve seen it in Mainland China, the most poignant example I can give is when I worked in the hotel in HK. Mainland Chinese tourists would come in and pay for their rooms in cash (perhaps because they didn’t have credit cards). When a room costs about US$250 per night and someone is staying for (for example) 5 nights plus tax and service charge that comes out to about US$1500. When the largest bill in Chinese Yuan is approx US$10, that’s a lot of Yuan! To be exact, that would about 120 paper notes! I don’t know if you’ve ever held that many paper notes at one time but try simulating it with regular paper sometime to find out how thick that is. Then imagine these nouveau-riche Chinese men carrying around Louis-Vuitton men’s purses filled with stacks and stacks of Yuan in them. To go from the ridiculous to the sublime, now imagine a not very rich Chinese man (or woman) carrying around that much money in a plastic grocery sack.
- They check every single CNY50 or CNY100 for the embedded security features. As if it was worth every counterfeiter’s effort to copy approx US$6 notes, every single person (except foreigners) checks in detail–and under a blacklight, if possible–every single RMB50 or 100 note. When someone hands over the kind of cash discussed in the previous paragraph this is a very long and tedious process. As if that weren’t enough,
- They count multiple times, with machines and by hand, to check that there are indeed that many bills. When the Chinese man paid in for his JW room in cash the entire process took at least 20min because of the checking and recounting. This morning when I went to pay my rent (not only did I need my passport and I don’t know why) the woman machine-counted my 34 notes twice, then proceeded to hand-count them again as if the fact that I’d counted them, my roommate had counted them, and the machine had counted them twice was not good enough for her.
My reason for writing all of this is to point out the ridiculousness of it and to suggest maybe the Chinese government can design, print, and circulate a note larger than RMB100. It seems to me it would save everyone a lot of trouble from the counting to checking multiple bills for validity to not having to carry so dang many notes around. Or perhaps they can just extend the banking infrastructure and institute a system like Hong Kong’s Octopus Card or at least make the country more credit card friendly.
Last night as I was having dinner with some fellow USC alums, he asked me if I wanted the receipt and I responded, no, why do I care about the receipt? Rarely are you given a receipt unless you ask for it. In restaurants when you ask for a receipt it actually means you’re given scratch cards totaling the amount of your bill. You scratch the end of the paper and most of the time it says ‘Thank you;’ however, I received one in which I won RMB5 and I’ve heard of someone else receiving RMB20. You simply return this to the restaurant and they give you the money. Hey fantastic for me, free money! Someone recently explained to me the purpose behind receipts in restaurants. It’s a way for the government to actually track the restaurant’s revenue and collect taxes from it. I’m not entirely sure how the system works but in a economy so much based on cash (and to some extend evading taxes), it seems to work. The customer wants the possibility of receiving free money so they ask for the scratch receipts, the government then knows approx how much their bill was, and then the company pays taxes on that amount. It’s really an ingenious system if you ask me.
However, this is not the reason the guy last night at dinner asked me if I wanted the receipt. He was not so excited to scratch the receipt himself; he had another reason. He explained to me that as foreigners living in China (and legally employed with a work visa and residence permit) any money we spend in the country, whether for rent, food, dry cleaning, taxis, even plane tickets back to our home country (presumably bought a local travel agency) can be applied to reduce our taxable income by that amount. If you figure the average foreigner here spends at least 75-90% of their income (because really there’s not much to save and when converted back to our home currency any savings would be so little it’s just not worth the sacrifices in lifestyle we’d make here) then that spending amounts to a fairly sizeable reduction in taxable income. Hey, I thought that’s crazy but that could seriously lighten the tax burden for any expat when we start getting a percentage back for each Starbucks we drink. 
I’m not sure why the government does this, perhaps to encourage foreigners to spend here and support consumption in the domestic economy but also to reduce the stress on the pegged exchange rate if all the foreigners started exchanging their money.
It seems there’s no sales tax here, nor any bed tax (for example, on hotel stays in HK). Attempting to explain sales tax or a bed tax to hotel employees who’ve never left the country was definitely a challenge.
If the country could establish a more omnipresent banking system it would reduce the need for such things as the scratch receipts to track restaurants’ taxable revenue because more people would use credit cards. And of course this would apply to stores/shops as well when they start accepting credit cards. Now, even places that accept credit cards may charge the customer extra for using a credit card (especially on small purchases) because the store will not only have to pay the credit card processing fee but also tax on the revenue (because the credit card transaction is traceable by the govt).
Banking, money, and taxes in China, what a complicated situation. Just hope HSBC will give me an ATM card next year…
November 1, 2006 at 12:33 am · Filed under Uncategorized, Knowledge and Experiences
My uncle just sent me an online article quoting a Chinese official asserting that they don’t censor the internet in China and I didn’t find the Chinese official’s comments all that surprising and the article was even less interesting. But what I did find interesting are the ridiculous comments that people wrote in reaction to the article. Here are the comments:
China’s Internet-filtering regime
Sonja Thompson
10/31/06
A Chinese government official received incredulous stares at the United Nations summit when he claimed that no Net censorship existed in China at all. However, very few cases of Net censorship are as carefully and publicly documented as the Great Firewall of China.
What are your thoughts about China’s Internet-filtering regime?
1.1. China allows….
jneilson
10/31/06
their subjects to see the stuff they don’t censor.
1.2. Clearly, this guy must have been a holdback…
JohnMcGrew@… 
10/31/06
…from the era where the Communists honestly believed that whatever they said became the operative reality. Global democratized communication destroyed that era almost 2 decades ago.
1.3. Sure, they don’t censor. As long as it is their politics and propoganda.
Why Me Worry?
10/31/06
Anything that goes against their oppresive commie regime will be blocked and any attempts by Chinese nationals to view “non-communist related materials” will result in serious jailtime, if not charges of treason. It’s like Iran claiming to need a nuclear reactor for “peaceful purposes” when most of their citizens live in mudhuts and tents like cavemen. Sure they don’t censor, just like the middle east isn’t exporting terrorism.
1.3.1. A minor correction,
mjwx
10/31/06
Iran is not a third world country, Whist I yes they are an oppressive regime but I do insist on being correct.
Iran isn’t a first world country (like the US AU and Japan) they fit in the middle (second world) most people live in cities with electricity and running water they just don’t have access to all the amenities we take for granted like, entertainment on demand, good education and health systems (we have those in AU) phone access is somewhat limited (think 1940’s Brittan). Most people don’t live like cavemen, in fact they have some good scientific institutions (geo-sciences especially, which completely avoids the religious and political aspirations) just not very many places for students, most who finish go overseas for a post grad (we get a lot of them in AU).
Also the main reason that Iran does not need an nuclear reactor is the amount of oil they are sitting on coupled with the fact that nuclear technology is dangerous. This reason is cited by European diplomats.
1.4. China Censor?
ssenders@…
10/31/06
They do not censor they just block. This way they are protecting their population from spam. LOL
1.5. And the UN wants to administer the net
pgerard
10/31/06
My concern is that the UN is blasting the US for wanting to keep control of the oversight of the net. If the UN were to administer the net, China would be one of the primary players to control decisions on censorship. And since they don’t censor the net in their own country, they wouldn’t have any problem doing exactly the same thing for other repressive regimes, like Iran.
1.5.1. Of course the UN wants control!
JohnMcGrew@…
10/31/06
But don’t just believe alone when I say the UN wants to be able to censor the Internet. They themselves say it at the very end of the UN Declaration on Human Rights:
Article 29.
(1) Everyone has duties to the community in which alone the free and full development of his personality is possible.
(2) In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society.
(3) These rights and freedoms may in no case be exercised contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.
1.6. Wow
Doogster 
10/31/06
To me, it was surprising to see just how brainwashed and clueless the Chinese are to their own situation. I’m not putting them down - I truly feel sorry for them.
It also makes you wonder in what other ways the government is controlling them. Sure, every government has some sort of control over its people, but the spin doctors in the US ain’t got nothin’ on the Chinese!
Not to open a can of worms, but thinking of how the Chinese don’t know what they don’t know, it makes me wonder what things that my own government might be hiding from me “for my own good”. What falsehoods might they have me believing via the evening news?
1.7. One of my sites is unavailable in China
trafficjon
10/31/06
I have a very small social networking site, mainly a supplement to LinkedIn, www.buildyournetworks.com.
Believe me, there is nothing of social significance, controvercy, etc. Just some profiles of open networkers.
I have had a number of recent Chinese direct contacts on LinkedIn tell me that they have not been able to access the site.
Go figure.
I suspect we have here an example of the old, if it is not approved it is forbidden mind set.
Sincerely,
Jon Williamson IT Manager, Webmaster, Candidate Recruiting
Williamson Employment Services, Inc.
213 Hilltop Rd.
St. Joseph, MI 49085
Are you LinkedIn? If so, send me a connection request!
If not, visit my profile at https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonwilliamson for information.
Visit our jobs page at http://www.williamsonemployment.com/jobs.html
My Main Phone: 269-353-4735
Fax: 269-983-8955
Cell Phone: 269-325-5559
Corporate Office: 269-983-0142 or 800-226-6801
Skype: williamson_jon
Gtalk: williamsonjon
email: jw@williamsonemployment.com
Other IM contact information available on request
1.8. We should wait for someone from China to reply.
jneilson
10/31/06
I’m sure they have access to this forum, don’t you think?
1.8.1. it’s very typical
ianwyu@…
10/31/06
this is so typical the only one sided story. and none of you have been to china and used the internet there, and yet you are all “experts” now of this issue. how lovely, once again prove you americans are whole bunch ignorant and arrogant ppl ever live on the planet earth.
1.8.1.1. Perhaps you should investigate before you accuse
JamesRL
10/31/06
Of course, if you are in China, you can’t read the pages I will point you to:
http://news.com.com/No+booze+or+jokes+for+Googlers+in+China/2100-1030_3-6031727.html
Precise: selected Sites on politics, religion, sex, alcohol, humour, dating, music are BANNED.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship_in_mainland_China
Try going to China and surfing for Falun Gong, Dalai Lama, Tianamen square
They also monitor internet chat rooms.
James
1.8.2. Reading you in China
beijingsusie@…
10/31/06
I’m an expat living in China. Internet censorship here drives me crazy!! It is impossible to get on the BBC website at all, wikipedia was blocked for a long time and recently they just unblocked the English-version (though who knows how long that will last?). Google is often blocked as was Gmail for a while on and off.
The stupid thing is, the people who want to, know how to get around these blocks anyway, and the people who don’t are usually so believing of what the government tells them anyway that no matter what they saw on the internet, they would probably write it off as another country trying to bad mouth them.
1.9. Absolutely Funny
genethomas@…
10/31/06
The China PRC will never openly sdmit they are filtering the internet. They tell the world they are not and they really do expect us to believe them.
Are you crazy? No documentation or openness about their filtered internet? That will never happen. Anyone caught breaking the rules well be dealt with immediately and you can be sure he will not do it again.
On the other hand, you mmay never see him again either.
Look around in China and you will see very few police. You will see military people doing the police duties
Do not be confused>>>Think Communist dictator nation.
1.10. The Gullible West
ld1915
10/31/06
Again, we see how taken the west and the US is as it relates to China. On almost every front China is making huge gains to position itself as a mojor gobal player. The control that it exercises over the internet in their country and the american IT companys falling all over themselves to do business there shows that they have us right where they want us at this point in their long term strategic plan.
1.11. Its a little from column A and a little from column B
mjwx
10/31/06
as DCARNILLSMITH pointed out sometimes we get different content or cant get access to pages (I cant access a few US and EU sites in australia).
sometimes this is because the site is set up to deliver you the AU or CA page instead of the US page (gamespot and bbc) sometimes its because the site blocks you (admins can choose to block Chinese or Australian IP’s). Mostly its because the Internet is best effort delivery system not guaranteed delivery. this happens to me (in Australia) a bit when accessing sites that are a fair distance away (and generally set up on cheaper connections).
Not to say there is no censorship going on, but its not the only reason.
But I know people who grew up in Hong Kong, (up until 2000 the British ruled it) and they tell me that almost nothing changed when HK changed hands. Censorship certainly isn’t as bad as we westerners make out, apparently we’re quiet alarmist about censorship according to my Chinese college. Also China is only half way to being a first world country. Internet access is not available in the entire country, particularly in rural and remote areas.
Edit: Just to say that I don’t believe anything I read in the news these days, if I want the truth I talk to someone who knows.
2. Censorship
DCARNILLSMITH@…
10/31/06
I have two computers. One one when I download things I register with a U.S. address, with the other I register with my real address and guess which one lacks alot of content, yes, the one with my real address. Is this a case of censorship? I am not talking “sophisticated” programs per se, real player, media player, even updating Google etc. Try it yourself, register outside the U.S. and a lot of radio, TV, music etc., is not available.
Oh, I live in CANADA and can see the U.S. from my window!
I was so charged by these comments that I went to the trouble of actually signing up for an account just so that I could reply and set these people straight. As such, here is my response:
I live in Shanghai, China and daily my friends and I complain about things in China (mostly the spitting, dirtiness, and noise) but never is internet censorship among our complaints. I actually think the slow speed of the internet is more annoying (only 100Mbps). Of course a few sites are blocked (like Amnesty and Radio Free China-a podcast) but I’ve never had any problems with BBC or Google and recently, as the person in Beijing mentioned, http://en.wikipedia.org was unblocked. Furthermore, the links sent by JamesRL about Google or internet censorship in China came through fine when I looked them up here. And with a proxy server there’s no reason not to access sites you want. (JamesRL, it helps if you spell Tiananmen correctly and China is actually a fairly liberal society when it comes to sex and alcohol.)
I definitely agree with the Beijing person’s comment that those who are capable and want to know can easily use a proxy server (or whatever means) and look up ‘blocked’ websites. And the others are happy living in Chinese propaganda bliss.
As for ianwyu’s comment, you should not be so fast to judge Americans until you have inquired what your (presumably) countrymen in China know of the outside world. It’s is far less than most Americans, and the sad thing is they don’t even care. I do agree with you that many of the comments on this post are erroneous, but my opinion is that it is mostly techies trying to prove they know something about something other than IT.
As for the opinion that the Chinese official is so delusional or brainwashed that he actually believed what he was saying, that is doubtful. He was just repeating the official party line about internet censorship and treatment of journalists and in doing so, probably boosting his status within the party.
As to other forms of censorship in China and issues regarding the people’s knowledge and opinion, I have written blogs about these topics. If you’re interested, please feel free to visit my blog and search for these articles. http://TofflerAnn.com I would also like to point out that I’ve written some rather controversial or critical posts about the Chinese government and my blog is still visible in China.
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Happy interneting Chinese friends.
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